Can Drutakarma Answer These Questions?


Dec 10 - As expected Drutakarma prabhu continues with his program of recycling already defeated arguments and inventing non-existent ones (see "The Phantom Order" on Chakra). Such blatant dishonesty will fool no-one except himself. It is clear that he has no intention of dealing with the ACTUAL statements made in the 'Final Order' but instead will continue to make up phantom arguments that we have never stated, because these are the only ones he can answer. We have pointed all this out to him now at least 3 times, but he just ignores what we say, and continues to lie.

For instance he states again that we dismiss Srila Prabhupada's lecture of April 6, 1975 as something "he made just to give some false hopes to some over ambitious disciples". This is just a lie, since we have never stated this. We have already pointed this out to him, and challenge him to produce where we say this. Instead he just keeps on repeating the lie hoping no one will notice, especially since his CHAKRA readers will be barred from seeing the responses to his articles. Thus there is no point answering responses to points we never made or simply repeating the same points again and again, just because Drutakarma chooses to ignore them.

Therefore to move this debate along we are going to make it real easy for him. We just want to ask him the following 3 simple questions, and will continue to ask them until he replies, for the following 3 questions deal with the whole basis of his arguments.

Drutakarma states that the July 9th letter makes no mention of departure.

  1. Why then has he selected the very time which is NOT mentioned in the letter as being the time at which he knows for sure that Srila Prabhupada wanted the system set up in the letter to be terminated?

    Drutakarma insists that the July 9th letter was not in 'Srila Prabhupada's own words'.
  2. However since the letter was approved and signed by Srila Prabhupada and sent out by him via his secretary, why does it have any less authority, especially when H.H. Jayadvaita Maharaja has stated that the authority of the letter is 'beyond question'?

Drutakarma has stated that in the April 6, 1975 lecture Srila Prabhupada is clearly instructing his disciples to initiate their own disciples after his departure. Yet when Srila Prabhupada actually directly speaks of how his disciples should act in the FUTURE, which is the conclusion to the passage, (not how they should act in Srila Prabhupada's presence) Srila Prabhupada actually states the following:

"Then, in future... Suppose you have got now ten thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand. That is required. Then hundred thousand to million, and million to ten million."

Here Srila Prabhupada states two things that prove that the context CANNOT be diksa:

  1. He says 'Then, in FUTURE... suppose YOU have got NOW ten thousand'. Srila Prabhupada opened the whole lecture by stating that his disciples cannot have their own disciples in his presence. Thus Srila Prabhupada cannot be talking about his disciples possessing their own disciples, for the context is how they are acting in Srila Prabhupada's PRESENCE - 'YOU have got NOW'.
  2. This is confirmed by the rest of the statement:

"Then, in future ... Suppose you have got now ten thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand. That is required. Then hundred thousand to million, and million to ten million."

As Drutakarma prabhu has admitted, the ten thousand here refers to SRILA PRABHUPADA's initiated disciples ONLY. Thus the expansion suggested is in the number of SRILA PRABHUPAD'S INITIATED disciples. Srila Prabhupada here clearly states that the context of the expansion is the 'ten thousand' that his disciples have 'got' at that time. Of course they have not 'got' them as disciples, but only as other members of the Krishna Consciousness movement.

The irony is that Drutakarma prabhu spends a large chunk of his article proving that that the 'ten thousand' refers specifically only to SRILA PRABHUPADA'S INITIATED disciples, and that THIS is what the expansion is required for:

"So it is abundantly clear that Prabhupada is speaking throughout the April 6, 1975 lecture of acaryas who will initiate disciples and increase the current number from ten thousand to tens of millions." (Drutakarama prabhu, 'The Phantom Order')

Here Drutakarma admits that Srila Prabhupada only wants disciples who will increase the number of SRILA PRABHUPADA'S initiated disciples, for the 'current number ten thousand' refers to this only. These are the acaryas Srila Prabhupada wants - OFFICIATING ACARYAS only - or ritviks.

  1. Thus how can the context for the above phrase, which is the conclusion to the passage, be for Srila Prabhupada's disciples to have their OWN initiated disciples?

Thus we strongly suggest that the next time Drutakarma prabhu attempts to 'respond', instead of just repeating arguments that have already been defeated or ascribing to us arguments which we have never made, he simply answers these 3 questions. In this way the discussion can actually move to a meaningful resolution. If he replies with his usual mixture of 'straw-man' and recycled arguments and does not DIRECTLY answer these questions, then it will be clear to everyone that he can't.


(from CHAKRA)

All Bluff, No Stuff (3) The Phantom Order

by Drutakarma Dasa

Krishnakant Desai has replied to my latest "All Bluff, No Stuff" text with an article he titles "Drutakarma Fights Phantoms."

There is nothing in the article worth quoting except the title, which makes my point completely. Yes, I am fighting "phantoms." Krishnakant Desai's claims about there being some final order by Prabhupada establishing a system whereby Prabhupada will continue to initiate disciples after his departure are just that phantoms.

A phantom, according to the dictionary, is "something with no substantial existence . . . something existing in appearance only." As I have repeatedly said: all bluff, no stuff.

There is no final order in Prabhupada's words where it is stated that Prabhupada will continue to initiate disciples after his departure. All Krishnakant Desai does is offer his imaginative interpretations of a letter written by Tamal Krishna Goswami on July 9, 1977 that does not say a single word about Prabhupada's departure or Prabhupada's intentions regarding initiations after his departure. When a document does not say what you would like it to say, you have to interpret itendlesslyto get it to say what you would like it to say. And that is all Krishnakant Desai can do. Interpret, interpret, interpret. Speculate, speculate, speculate.

The Final Order is a Phantom Order, one that exists only in the mind of Krishnakant Desai and his band of followers, a regular society of cheater and cheated.

I am still waiting for Krishnakant Desai to produce this so-called final order where Prabhupada directly says in his own words that he is going to change the whole Vedic system of disciplic succession by continuing to initiate disciples after his physical departure from this world. The reason he has not produced any such final order is because such a final order does not exist. If such a final order did exist, there would be no need for Krishnakant Desai to give volumes and volumes of his own speculative interpretations of Tamal Krishna Goswami's July 9 letter. It is all bluff, no stuff.

If Krishnakant Desai cannot produce this so-called final order where Srila Prabhupada directly says in his own words (or directly says in anybody else's words under his signature) that he is going to continue to initiate disciples after his physical departure, I suggest that he confess to the world that all he is doing, all he ever has been doing, is offering his own speculative interpretation of words written by Tamal Krishna Goswami, words that do not mention Prabhupada's departure or initiations after Prabhupada's departure.

Actually, I am going into final boredom waiting for him to produce his so-called final order. If he had it, I suspect he would have produced it by now. The real truth: he just does not have any real stuff to back up all his bluff.

Any disciple of Srila Prabhupada who, out of some momentary suspension of good judgement, has decided to follow in the footsteps of the imaginative and uninitiated Bhakta Krishnakant should immediately distance themselves from him, because time is really getting short. If such disciples are truly interested in reform, I suggest they step away from Bhakta Krishnakant and come to Mayapur this year (without their rtvik heresy baggage) and sit down with their godbrothers and godsisters and get down to the real work of reforming ISKCON in line with Srila Prabhupada's desires. They will be honored and welcomed. It should not be held against anyone that they have toyed with the rtvik idea for awhile. But they should understand that if they keep following Bhakta Krishnakant into rtvik heresy fantasyland, they are going to be marginalized more than ever. If that's how they want to spend the rest of their lives, that's fine. But I certainly hope they will join their loyal ISKCON godbrothers and godsisters who, like them, are very concerned about the past, present, and future of the Krishna consciousness movement. This year is going to be a year of major changes in ISKCON, setting it on a new course. If they want to be part of this, they will be welcome. Reform yes, rtvik no. Otherwise, with our best wishes, they can start to chart the course of their own rtvik heretical sect.

I am quite happy to see on CHAKRA that the members of the Bangalore congregation are speaking out, and showing their firm determination to oppose the rtvik heresy in Bangalore. It would be good if the temple members themselves would do the same. Hopefully, they will be able to prevent their temple from becoming known throughout the ISKCON world as the New Vrindavan of the New Millenium. I apologize to the sincere followers of Srila Prabhupada in New Vrindavan who have brought their community back from exile into the family of ISKCON for referring to an unhappy bit of history. But the residents of Bangalore ISKCON should realize that they are being led down the same path.

I am also happy to see on CHAKRA that the granddisciples of Srila Prabhupada are starting to organize themselves to oppose the rtvik heresy. This is a good development. The fact is that ISKCON today, except for the topmost leadership positions, is now in the hands of Prabhupada's granddisciples. They are the ones who are distributing the books, worshiping the Deities, and running the temples all over the world. I encourage them to start making their opinions about the rtvik heresy (and ISKCON reform) known. In a few years, they will also be holding all the leadership positions. And I pray they will continue to keep ISKCON on the right track.

Now, let's look at phase two of Krishnakant Desai's program of deception and distortion. Not only does he manufacture phantom final orders, he deliberately dismantles all of the actual orders that Prabhupada gave to ISKCON about the continuation of the disciplic succession, all the orders where Prabhupada directly mentions in his own words his departure and what he expected to happen after his departure regarding initiations.

Krishnakant Desai flagrantly dismisses the sacred words of Srila Prabhupada by the same method he uses to manufacture phantom final orders in Srila Prabhupada's namespeculative misinterpretation. If Srila Prabhupada says something about his disciples initiating disciples of their own after his departure, Krishnakant Desai, applying the magic of speculative misinterpretation, turns these statements into their exact opposite. No disciple of Srila Prabhupada who honors the memory of Srila Prabhupada and the sacredness of his words should allow him to get away with this. This is the same tactic that the Mayavadis use to turn the sacred words of Vyasadeva, establishing the Personality of Godhead, into words establishing their doctrine of impersonalism.

Here is an examplethe Caitanya-caritamrta class given by Srila Prabhupada in Mayapur, on April 6, 1975.


Prabhupada: So Advaita Acarya is the typical example how to become acarya. All are our acaryas, sri-krsna-caitanya prabhu-nityananda, sri-advaita gadadhara srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrnda. All of them are acaryas because they are following the acarya, supreme acarya, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Therefore they are acarya. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. So we have to follow the acarya. Then, when we are completely, cent per cent follower of acarya, then you can also act as acarya. This is the process. Don't become premature acarya. First of all follow the orders of acarya, and you become mature. Then it is better to become acarya. Because we are interested in preparing acarya, but the etiquette is, at least for the period the guru is present, one should not become acarya. Even if he is complete he should not, because the etiquette is, if somebody comes for becoming initiated, it is the duty of such person to bring that prospective candidate to his acarya. Not that "Now people are coming to me, so I can become acarya." That is avamanya. Navamanyeta karhicit. Don't transgress this etiquette. Navamanyeta. That will be falldown. Just like during the lifetime of our Guru Maharaja, all our Godbrothers now who are acting as acarya, they did not do so. That is not etiquette. Acaryam mam vijaniyat na avaman... That is insult. So if you insult your acarya, then you are finished. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasya aprasadat na gatih kuto pi-finished. If you displease your acarya, then you are finished. Therefore it is said, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says to all the acaryas... Nityananda Prabhu, Advaita Prabhu and Srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrnda, they are all carriers of orders of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So try to follow the path of acarya process. Then life will be successful.

And to become acarya is not very difficult. First of all, to become very faithful servant of your acarya, follow strictly what he says. Try to please him and spread Krishna consciousness. Thats all. It is not at all difficult. Try to follow the instruction of your Guru Maharaja and spread Krishna consciousness. That is the order of Lord Caitanya.

amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa

yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa

"By following My order, you become guru." And if we strictly follow the acarya system and try our best to spread the instruction of Krishna... Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. There are two kinds of krsna-upadesa. Upadesa means instruction. Instruction given by Krishna, that is also krsna-upadesa, and instruction received about Krishna, that is also krsna-upadesa. Krishnasya upadesa iti krsna upadesa. Samasa, sasti-tat-purusa-samasa. And Krishna visaya upadesa, that is also Krishna upadesa. Bahu-vrihi-samasa. This is the way of analyzing Sanskrit grammar. So Krishnas upadesa is Bhagavad-gita. He's directly giving instruction. So one who is spreading Krishna-upadesa, simply repeat what is said by Krishna, then you become acarya. Not difficult at all. Everything is stated there. We have to simply repeat like parrot. Not exactly parrot. Parrot does not understand the meaning; he simply vibrates. But you should understand the meaning also; otherwise how you can explain? So, so we want to spread Krishna consciousness. Simply prepare yourself how to repeat Krishnas instructions very nicely, without any malinterpretation. Then, in future... Suppose you have got now ten thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand. That is required. Then hundred thousand to million, and million to ten million.

Devotees: Jaya!

Prabhupada: So there will be no scarcity of acarya, and people will understand Krishna consciousness very easily. So make that organization. Dont be falsely puffed up. Follow the acarya's instruction and try to make yourself perfect, mature.


Here Prabhupada says to the entire leadership of the Krishna consciousness movement (the GBCs, sannyasis, and presidents gathered at Mayapur) that he expects them to become acaryas (gurus) who will initiate their own disciples. He just asks them to be qualified and to wait until after his departure to take up that role. This is the same thing that Srila Prabhupada always said whenever he directly spoke in his own words about the future of the disciplic succession in ISKCON.

In one of his replies to me, Krishnakant Desai goes through his usual exercise of using speculative misinterpretation to prove that when Srila Prabhupada says white he means black.

First of all, he says "Nowhere in the above passage does Srila Prabhupada even mention the word 'initiate'". Yes, he does. He used the word "initiated." He directly says that if someone approaches one of his disciples for initiation, the disciple should not initiate that person because the etiquette is that the disciple should wait until after the departure of the spiritual master to initiate such disciples. So Srila Prabhupada directly uses the word initiation ("initiated"), which establishes quite definitely what kind of acarya the whole discussion is aboutit is about acaryas who initiate their own disciples.

That is why Prabhupada stresses the matter of becoming mature and waiting until after the departure of the guru. If Srila Prabhupada were talking only about siksa-gurus, in the sense of children and ordinary folks who just repeat whatever they remember of Krishna's instructions, with no particular level of realization, then there would be no need to talk about becoming mature. You don't have to wait until after the departure of your guru to start telling people about Krishna. It is never premature to do that. You don't have to come to any particularly mature stage of Krishna consciousness to do that.

By directly mentioning initiation in connection with his use of the word acarya, Srila Prabhupada is clearly indicating that he is talking about an acarya who gives diksa, initiation. Also, the acaryas that he mentions in the immediately preceding sentences (Advaita, Nityananda, etc.) were acaryas who gave diksa, initiation. Srila Prabhupada directly says he is interested in preparing such acaryas, acaryas who will give initiation. Otherwise, he would not impose the conditions of becoming mature and waiting until after his departure.

To make the matter even more abundantly clear, Srila Prabhupada uses the word acarya in connection with his godbrothers, explaining that they observed the etiquette of not initiating until their guru, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, had departed. This confirms that the word acarya is being used in the sense of diksa guru, a guru who gives initiation.

So here Srila Prabhupada lays out his plan for the continuation of the disciplic succession after his departure. Krishnakant Desai wants to interpret this as just a slap at overambitious disciples. He wants us to think that when Prabhupada says he is interested in preparing acaryas, acaryas who will initiate, he is really saying that none of his disciples will become gurus after his departure. In other words, by his speculative interpretations, he wants us to think that when Prabhupada says white, he really means black.

I ask Krishnakant Desai to produce a statement where Srila Prabhupada says that in his statement to the entire leadership of the Krishna consciousness movement on April 6, 1975, that his real intention was not to prepare acaryas who would initiate. Where does Srila Prabhupada say that this was a statement he made just to give some false hopes to some overambitious disciples? There is no such statement. It is only a speculative interpretation offered by Krishnakant Desai in order to dismiss a conclusive statement by Srila Prabhupada that directly contradicts Krishnakant Desai's deliberate misreading of Tamal Krishna Goswami's letter of July 9, 1977, which makes no mention of Prabhupada's departure or who was to initiate after Prabhupada's departure.

Krishnakant Desai emphatically asserts that the word guru in the amara-ajnaya verse, spoken by Lord Caitanya and recorded by Krishnadasa Kaviraja in Caitanya Caritamrta can ONLY refer to siksa gurus. I have read through the Caitanya Caritamrta very carefully, and I can find no statement by Krishnadas Kaviraja that says the word guru in the amara-ajnaya verse can only mean siksa guru. I did not see any statement by Lord Caitanya in that section or anywhere else that says the word guru in the amara ajnaya verse can only refer to siksa guru. I have seen no statement by Srila Prabhupada that the word guru in the amara ajnaya verse can only refer to siksa-guru. Indeed, the only person I have ever heard make that assertion is Krishnakant Desai (or one of his followers).

A final indication that Srila Prabhupada's use of acarya throughout the April 6, 1975, lecture indicates gurus who initiate disciples is found in his reference to ISKCON having "ten thousand." Anyone who was around during this period will remember this as Srila Prabhupada's standard estimate of the number of his initiated disciples. Here follow a few quotes that demonstrate this:

Prabhupada: So we have got ten thousand disciples all over the world. Mostly they are Europeans and Americans and Australians. Their expenditure is very heavy. How Krishna is supplying, you can see. We are spending ten lakhs of rupees per month, and Krishna is supplying. (April 11, 1975, Hyderabad)

Prabhupada: For example, you can see practically all my disciples present there. They are coming from Western countries, Europe, America, or even in India, Parsis and other, Mohammedans, they are coming. But they are now pure, cleansed of all dirty things. In this movement throughout the whole world there are at least ten to twelve thousand devotees like that. And before this life they were addicted to all kinds of sinful life. We have summarized all sinful activities into four groups, namely, illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and gambling. So all these ten to twelve thousand men who are now attached with this Krishna consciousness movement, they are not committing these four pillars of sinful life. (January 5, 1976, Nellore, India) Journalist: Yes. How many followers do you have throughout the world now?

Prabhupada: No, throughout the world, in India everyone is Krishna conscious. In the outside India we have got about ten to twelve thousand dedicated followers. (May 19, 1975, Melbourne, Australia).

Reporter (3): How many followers do you have?

Prabhupada: Well, to find out first-class man is very difficult. Therefore, our followers, you cannot count a large number. We are training them to become first-class man. Still, we have got about ten thousand followers in the western countries. (July 9, 1975, Chicago)

BBT editors: In the mid-seventies Srila Prabhupada's translating and publishing intensified dramatically. Scholars all over the world showered favorable reviews on his books, and practically all the universities and colleges in America accepted them as standard texts. Altogether he produced some eighty books, which his disciples have translated into twenty-five languages and distributed to the tune of fifty-five million copies. He established one hundred eight temples worldwide, and he has some ten thousand initiated disciples and a congregational following in the millions. Srila Prabhupada was writing and translating up to the last days of his eighty-one-year stay on earth. (foreword to Science of Self-Realization)

So it is abundantly clear that Prabhupada is speaking throughout the April 6, 1975 lecture of acaryas who will initiate disciples and increase the current number from ten thousand to tens of millions. He established two conditions for becoming acaryabecoming mature by repeating and following the instructions of the previous acaryas, and observing the etiquette of waiting until after his departure before beginning to initiate. He says there will be no scarcity of acaryas. He will not be the only acarya (guru). There will be many, many, manyno scarcity. His sincere disciples will be acaryas who will increase the number of disciples after his physical departure.

I feel very, very sorry for any disciple of Srila Prabhupada who takes seriously Krishnakant Desai efforts to turn this very clear statement by Srila Prabhupada, given to most of the leadership of ISKCON at Mayapur and a good fraction of its total membership, into the exact opposite of what Prabhupada actually said. I feel very, very sorry. But if they want to follow Bhakta Krishnakant instead of their own spiritual master, so be it. Everyone has free will, but they have to live with the results.