| Can Drutakarma
Answer These Questions?
Dec 10 - As expected Drutakarma prabhu continues
with his program of recycling already defeated arguments and inventing
non-existent ones (see "The Phantom Order" on Chakra). Such
blatant dishonesty will fool no-one except himself. It is clear that he
has no intention of dealing with the ACTUAL statements made in the 'Final Order' but
instead will continue to make up phantom arguments that we have never
stated, because these are the only ones he can answer. We have pointed
all this out to him now at least 3 times, but he just ignores what we
say, and continues to lie.
For instance he states again that we dismiss Srila Prabhupada's lecture
of April 6, 1975 as something "he made just to give some false
hopes to some over ambitious disciples". This is just a lie, since
we have never stated this. We have already pointed this out to him, and
challenge him to produce where we say this. Instead he just keeps on
repeating the lie hoping no one will notice, especially since his
CHAKRA readers will be barred from seeing the responses to his
articles. Thus there is no point answering responses to points we never
made or simply repeating the same points again and again, just because
Drutakarma chooses to ignore them.
Therefore to move this debate
along we are going to make it real easy for him. We just want to ask
him the following 3 simple questions, and will continue to ask them
until he replies, for the following 3 questions deal with the whole
basis of his arguments.
Drutakarma states that the July 9th letter makes no mention
- Why then has he selected the
very time which is NOT mentioned in the letter as being the time at
which he knows for sure that Srila Prabhupada wanted the system set up
in the letter to be terminated?
Drutakarma insists that the July 9th letter was not in
'Srila Prabhupada's own words'.
- However since the letter was
approved and signed by Srila Prabhupada and sent out by him via his
secretary, why does it have any less authority, especially when H.H.
Jayadvaita Maharaja has stated that the authority of the letter is
Drutakarma has stated that in the
April 6, 1975 lecture Srila Prabhupada is clearly instructing his
disciples to initiate their own disciples after his departure. Yet when
Srila Prabhupada actually directly speaks of how his disciples should
act in the FUTURE, which is the conclusion to the passage, (not how
they should act in Srila Prabhupada's presence) Srila Prabhupada
actually states the following:
in future... Suppose you have got now ten thousand. We shall expand to
hundred thousand. That is required. Then hundred thousand to million,
and million to ten million."
Here Srila Prabhupada states two
things that prove that the context CANNOT be diksa:
- He says 'Then, in FUTURE...
suppose YOU have got NOW ten thousand'. Srila Prabhupada opened the
whole lecture by stating that his disciples cannot have their own
disciples in his presence. Thus Srila Prabhupada cannot be talking
about his disciples possessing their own disciples, for the context is
how they are acting in Srila Prabhupada's PRESENCE - 'YOU have got NOW'.
- This is confirmed by the rest
of the statement:
"Then, in future ...
Suppose you have got now ten thousand. We shall expand to hundred
thousand. That is required. Then hundred thousand to million, and
million to ten million."
As Drutakarma prabhu has admitted,
the ten thousand here refers to SRILA PRABHUPADA's initiated disciples
ONLY. Thus the expansion suggested is in the number of SRILA PRABHUPAD'S INITIATED disciples. Srila Prabhupada here clearly states
that the context of the expansion is the 'ten thousand' that his
disciples have 'got' at that time. Of course they have not 'got' them
as disciples, but only as other members of the Krishna Consciousness
The irony is that Drutakarma
prabhu spends a large chunk of his article proving that that the 'ten
thousand' refers specifically only to SRILA PRABHUPADA'S INITIATED
disciples, and that THIS is what the expansion is required for:
|"So it is
abundantly clear that Prabhupada is speaking throughout the April 6,
1975 lecture of acaryas who will initiate disciples and increase
the current number from ten thousand to tens of millions." (Drutakarama
prabhu, 'The Phantom Order')
Here Drutakarma admits that Srila
Prabhupada only wants disciples who will increase the number of SRILA
PRABHUPADA'S initiated disciples, for the 'current number ten thousand'
refers to this only. These are the acaryas Srila Prabhupada wants -
OFFICIATING ACARYAS only - or ritviks.
- Thus how can the context for
the above phrase, which is the conclusion to the passage, be for Srila
Prabhupada's disciples to have their OWN initiated disciples?
Thus we strongly suggest that the
next time Drutakarma prabhu attempts to 'respond', instead of just
repeating arguments that have already been defeated or ascribing to us
arguments which we have never made, he simply answers these 3
questions. In this way the discussion can actually move to a meaningful
resolution. If he replies with his usual mixture of 'straw-man' and
recycled arguments and does not DIRECTLY answer these questions, then
it will be clear to everyone that he can't.
All Bluff, No Stuff (3) The Phantom Order
by Drutakarma Dasa
Krishnakant Desai has replied to my latest "All Bluff, No Stuff" text
with an article he titles "Drutakarma Fights Phantoms."
There is nothing in the article worth quoting except the title, which
makes my point completely. Yes, I am fighting "phantoms." Krishnakant
Desai's claims about there being some final order by Prabhupada
establishing a system whereby Prabhupada will continue to initiate
disciples after his departure are just that phantoms.
A phantom, according to the dictionary, is "something with no
substantial existence . . . something existing in appearance only." As
I have repeatedly said: all bluff, no stuff.
There is no final order in Prabhupada's words where it is stated that
Prabhupada will continue to initiate disciples after his departure. All
Krishnakant Desai does is offer his imaginative interpretations of a
letter written by Tamal Krishna Goswami on July 9, 1977 that does not
say a single word about Prabhupada's departure or Prabhupada's
intentions regarding initiations after his departure. When a document
does not say what you would like it to say, you have to interpret
itendlesslyto get it to say what you would like it to say. And that is
all Krishnakant Desai can do. Interpret, interpret, interpret.
Speculate, speculate, speculate.
The Final Order is a Phantom Order, one that exists only in the mind of
Krishnakant Desai and his band of followers, a regular society of
cheater and cheated.
I am still waiting for Krishnakant Desai to produce this so-called
final order where Prabhupada directly says in his own words that he is
going to change the whole Vedic system of disciplic succession by
continuing to initiate disciples after his physical departure from this
world. The reason he has not produced any such final order is because
such a final order does not exist. If such a final order did exist,
there would be no need for Krishnakant Desai to give volumes and
volumes of his own speculative interpretations of Tamal Krishna
Goswami's July 9 letter. It is all bluff, no stuff.
If Krishnakant Desai cannot produce this so-called final order where
Srila Prabhupada directly says in his own words (or directly says in
anybody else's words under his signature) that he is going to continue
to initiate disciples after his physical departure, I suggest that he
confess to the world that all he is doing, all he ever has been doing,
is offering his own speculative interpretation of words written by
Tamal Krishna Goswami, words that do not mention Prabhupada's departure
or initiations after Prabhupada's departure.
Actually, I am going into final boredom waiting for him to produce his
so-called final order. If he had it, I suspect he would have produced
it by now. The real truth: he just does not have any real stuff to back
up all his bluff.
Any disciple of Srila Prabhupada who, out of some momentary suspension
of good judgement, has decided to follow in the footsteps of the
imaginative and uninitiated Bhakta Krishnakant should immediately
distance themselves from him, because time is really getting short. If
such disciples are truly interested in reform, I suggest they step away
from Bhakta Krishnakant and come to Mayapur this year (without their
rtvik heresy baggage) and sit down with their godbrothers and
godsisters and get down to the real work of reforming ISKCON in line
with Srila Prabhupada's desires. They will be honored and welcomed. It
should not be held against anyone that they have toyed with the rtvik
idea for awhile. But they should understand that if they keep following
Bhakta Krishnakant into rtvik heresy fantasyland, they are going to be
marginalized more than ever. If that's how they want to spend the rest
of their lives, that's fine. But I certainly hope they will join their
loyal ISKCON godbrothers and godsisters who, like them, are very
concerned about the past, present, and future of the Krishna
consciousness movement. This year is going to be a year of major
changes in ISKCON, setting it on a new course. If they want to be part
of this, they will be welcome. Reform yes, rtvik no. Otherwise, with
our best wishes, they can start to chart the course of their own rtvik
I am quite happy to see on CHAKRA that the members of the Bangalore
congregation are speaking out, and showing their firm determination to
oppose the rtvik heresy in Bangalore. It would be good if the temple
members themselves would do the same. Hopefully, they will be able to
prevent their temple from becoming known throughout the ISKCON world as
the New Vrindavan of the New Millenium. I apologize to the sincere
followers of Srila Prabhupada in New Vrindavan who have brought their
community back from exile into the family of ISKCON for referring to an
unhappy bit of history. But the residents of Bangalore ISKCON should
realize that they are being led down the same path.
I am also happy to see on CHAKRA that the granddisciples of Srila
Prabhupada are starting to organize themselves to oppose the rtvik
heresy. This is a good development. The fact is that ISKCON today,
except for the topmost leadership positions, is now in the hands of
Prabhupada's granddisciples. They are the ones who are distributing the
books, worshiping the Deities, and running the temples all over the
world. I encourage them to start making their opinions about the rtvik
heresy (and ISKCON reform) known. In a few years, they will also be
holding all the leadership positions. And I pray they will continue to
keep ISKCON on the right track.
Now, let's look at phase two of Krishnakant Desai's program of
deception and distortion. Not only does he manufacture phantom final
orders, he deliberately dismantles all of the actual orders that
Prabhupada gave to ISKCON about the continuation of the disciplic
succession, all the orders where Prabhupada directly mentions in his
own words his departure and what he expected to happen after his
departure regarding initiations.
Krishnakant Desai flagrantly dismisses the sacred words of Srila
Prabhupada by the same method he uses to manufacture phantom final
orders in Srila Prabhupada's namespeculative misinterpretation. If
Srila Prabhupada says something about his disciples initiating
disciples of their own after his departure, Krishnakant Desai, applying
the magic of speculative misinterpretation, turns these statements into
their exact opposite. No disciple of Srila Prabhupada who honors the
memory of Srila Prabhupada and the sacredness of his words should allow
him to get away with this. This is the same tactic that the Mayavadis
use to turn the sacred words of Vyasadeva, establishing the Personality
of Godhead, into words establishing their doctrine of impersonalism.
Here is an examplethe Caitanya-caritamrta class given by Srila
Prabhupada in Mayapur, on April 6, 1975.
Prabhupada: So Advaita Acarya is the typical example how to become
acarya. All are our acaryas, sri-krsna-caitanya prabhu-nityananda,
sri-advaita gadadhara srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrnda. All of them are
acaryas because they are following the acarya, supreme acarya, Caitanya
Mahaprabhu. Therefore they are acarya. Evam parampara-praptam imam
rajarsayo viduh. So we have to follow the acarya. Then, when we are
completely, cent per cent follower of acarya, then you can also act as
acarya. This is the process. Don't become premature acarya. First of
all follow the orders of acarya, and you become mature. Then it is
better to become acarya. Because we are interested in preparing acarya,
but the etiquette is, at least for the period the guru is present, one
should not become acarya. Even if he is complete he should not, because
the etiquette is, if somebody comes for becoming initiated, it is the
duty of such person to bring that prospective candidate to his acarya.
Not that "Now people are coming to me, so I can become acarya." That is
avamanya. Navamanyeta karhicit. Don't transgress this etiquette.
Navamanyeta. That will be falldown. Just like during the lifetime of
our Guru Maharaja, all our Godbrothers now who are acting as acarya,
they did not do so. That is not etiquette. Acaryam mam vijaniyat na
avaman... That is insult. So if you insult your acarya, then you are
finished. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasya aprasadat na gatih kuto
pi-finished. If you displease your acarya, then you are finished.
Therefore it is said, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says to all the acaryas...
Nityananda Prabhu, Advaita Prabhu and Srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrnda,
they are all carriers of orders of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So try to
follow the path of acarya process. Then life will be successful.
And to become acarya is not very difficult. First of all, to become
very faithful servant of your acarya, follow strictly what he says. Try
to please him and spread Krishna consciousness. Thats all. It is not at
all difficult. Try to follow the instruction of your Guru Maharaja and
spread Krishna consciousness. That is the order of Lord Caitanya.
amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa
yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa
"By following My order, you become guru." And if we strictly follow the
acarya system and try our best to spread the instruction of Krishna...
Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. There are two kinds of
krsna-upadesa. Upadesa means instruction. Instruction given by Krishna,
that is also krsna-upadesa, and instruction received about Krishna, that
is also krsna-upadesa. Krishnasya upadesa iti krsna upadesa. Samasa,
sasti-tat-purusa-samasa. And Krishna visaya upadesa, that is also Krishna
upadesa. Bahu-vrihi-samasa. This is the way of analyzing Sanskrit
grammar. So Krishnas upadesa is Bhagavad-gita. He's directly giving
instruction. So one who is spreading Krishna-upadesa, simply repeat what
is said by Krishna, then you become acarya. Not difficult at all.
Everything is stated there. We have to simply repeat like parrot. Not
exactly parrot. Parrot does not understand the meaning; he simply
vibrates. But you should understand the meaning also; otherwise how you
can explain? So, so we want to spread Krishna consciousness. Simply
prepare yourself how to repeat Krishnas instructions very nicely, without
any malinterpretation. Then, in future... Suppose you have got now ten
thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand. That is required. Then
hundred thousand to million, and million to ten million.
Prabhupada: So there will be no scarcity of acarya, and people will
understand Krishna consciousness very easily. So make that organization.
Dont be falsely puffed up. Follow the acarya's instruction and try to
make yourself perfect, mature.
Here Prabhupada says to the entire leadership of the Krishna
consciousness movement (the GBCs, sannyasis, and presidents gathered at
Mayapur) that he expects them to become acaryas (gurus) who will
initiate their own disciples. He just asks them to be qualified and to
wait until after his departure to take up that role. This is the same
thing that Srila Prabhupada always said whenever he directly spoke in
his own words about the future of the disciplic succession in ISKCON.
In one of his replies to me, Krishnakant Desai goes through his usual
exercise of using speculative misinterpretation to prove that when
Srila Prabhupada says white he means black.
First of all, he says "Nowhere in the above passage does Srila
Prabhupada even mention the word 'initiate'". Yes, he does. He used the
word "initiated." He directly says that if someone approaches one of
his disciples for initiation, the disciple should not initiate that
person because the etiquette is that the disciple should wait until
after the departure of the spiritual master to initiate such disciples.
So Srila Prabhupada directly uses the word initiation ("initiated"),
which establishes quite definitely what kind of acarya the whole
discussion is aboutit is about acaryas who initiate their own
That is why Prabhupada stresses the matter of becoming mature and
waiting until after the departure of the guru. If Srila Prabhupada were
talking only about siksa-gurus, in the sense of children and ordinary
folks who just repeat whatever they remember of Krishna's instructions,
with no particular level of realization, then there would be no need to
talk about becoming mature. You don't have to wait until after the
departure of your guru to start telling people about Krishna. It is
never premature to do that. You don't have to come to any particularly
mature stage of Krishna consciousness to do that.
By directly mentioning initiation in connection with his use of the
word acarya, Srila Prabhupada is clearly indicating that he is talking
about an acarya who gives diksa, initiation. Also, the acaryas that he
mentions in the immediately preceding sentences (Advaita, Nityananda,
etc.) were acaryas who gave diksa, initiation. Srila Prabhupada
directly says he is interested in preparing such acaryas, acaryas who
will give initiation. Otherwise, he would not impose the conditions of
becoming mature and waiting until after his departure.
To make the matter even more abundantly clear, Srila Prabhupada uses
the word acarya in connection with his godbrothers, explaining that
they observed the etiquette of not initiating until their guru,
Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, had departed. This confirms that the word
acarya is being used in the sense of diksa guru, a guru who gives
So here Srila Prabhupada lays out his plan for the continuation of the
disciplic succession after his departure. Krishnakant Desai wants to
interpret this as just a slap at overambitious disciples. He wants us
to think that when Prabhupada says he is interested in preparing
acaryas, acaryas who will initiate, he is really saying that none of
his disciples will become gurus after his departure. In other words, by
his speculative interpretations, he wants us to think that when
Prabhupada says white, he really means black.
I ask Krishnakant Desai to produce a statement where Srila Prabhupada
says that in his statement to the entire leadership of the Krishna
consciousness movement on April 6, 1975, that his real intention was
not to prepare acaryas who would initiate. Where does Srila Prabhupada
say that this was a statement he made just to give some false hopes to
some overambitious disciples? There is no such statement. It is only a
speculative interpretation offered by Krishnakant Desai in order to
dismiss a conclusive statement by Srila Prabhupada that directly
contradicts Krishnakant Desai's deliberate misreading of Tamal Krishna
Goswami's letter of July 9, 1977, which makes no mention of
Prabhupada's departure or who was to initiate after Prabhupada's
Krishnakant Desai emphatically asserts that the word guru in the
amara-ajnaya verse, spoken by Lord Caitanya and recorded by Krishnadasa
Kaviraja in Caitanya Caritamrta can ONLY refer to siksa gurus. I have
read through the Caitanya Caritamrta very carefully, and I can find no
statement by Krishnadas Kaviraja that says the word guru in the
amara-ajnaya verse can only mean siksa guru. I did not see any
statement by Lord Caitanya in that section or anywhere else that says
the word guru in the amara ajnaya verse can only refer to siksa guru. I
have seen no statement by Srila Prabhupada that the word guru in the
amara ajnaya verse can only refer to siksa-guru. Indeed, the only
person I have ever heard make that assertion is Krishnakant Desai (or
one of his followers).
A final indication that Srila Prabhupada's use of acarya throughout the
April 6, 1975, lecture indicates gurus who initiate disciples is found
in his reference to ISKCON having "ten thousand." Anyone who was around
during this period will remember this as Srila Prabhupada's standard
estimate of the number of his initiated disciples. Here follow a few
quotes that demonstrate this:
Prabhupada: So we have got ten thousand disciples all over the world.
Mostly they are Europeans and Americans and Australians. Their
expenditure is very heavy. How Krishna is supplying, you can see. We are
spending ten lakhs of rupees per month, and Krishna is supplying. (April
11, 1975, Hyderabad)
Prabhupada: For example, you can see practically all my disciples
present there. They are coming from Western countries, Europe, America,
or even in India, Parsis and other, Mohammedans, they are coming. But
they are now pure, cleansed of all dirty things. In this movement
throughout the whole world there are at least ten to twelve thousand
devotees like that. And before this life they were addicted to all
kinds of sinful life. We have summarized all sinful activities into
four groups, namely, illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and
gambling. So all these ten to twelve thousand men who are now attached
with this Krishna consciousness movement, they are not committing these
four pillars of sinful life. (January 5, 1976, Nellore, India)
Journalist: Yes. How many followers do you have throughout the world
Prabhupada: No, throughout the world, in India everyone is Krishna
conscious. In the outside India we have got about ten to twelve
thousand dedicated followers. (May 19, 1975, Melbourne, Australia).
Reporter (3): How many followers do you have?
Prabhupada: Well, to find out first-class man is very difficult.
Therefore, our followers, you cannot count a large number. We are
training them to become first-class man. Still, we have got about ten
thousand followers in the western countries. (July 9, 1975, Chicago)
BBT editors: In the mid-seventies Srila Prabhupada's translating and
publishing intensified dramatically. Scholars all over the world
showered favorable reviews on his books, and practically all the
universities and colleges in America accepted them as standard texts.
Altogether he produced some eighty books, which his disciples have
translated into twenty-five languages and distributed to the tune of
fifty-five million copies. He established one hundred eight temples
worldwide, and he has some ten thousand initiated disciples and a
congregational following in the millions. Srila Prabhupada was writing
and translating up to the last days of his eighty-one-year stay on
earth. (foreword to Science of Self-Realization)
So it is abundantly clear that Prabhupada is speaking throughout the
April 6, 1975 lecture of acaryas who will initiate disciples and
increase the current number from ten thousand to tens of millions. He
established two conditions for becoming acaryabecoming mature by
repeating and following the instructions of the previous acaryas, and
observing the etiquette of waiting until after his departure before
beginning to initiate. He says there will be no scarcity of acaryas. He
will not be the only acarya (guru). There will be many, many, manyno
scarcity. His sincere disciples will be acaryas who will increase the
number of disciples after his physical departure.
I feel very, very sorry for any disciple of Srila Prabhupada who takes
seriously Krishnakant Desai efforts to turn this very clear statement
by Srila Prabhupada, given to most of the leadership of ISKCON at
Mayapur and a good fraction of its total membership, into the exact
opposite of what Prabhupada actually said. I feel very, very sorry. But
if they want to follow Bhakta Krishnakant instead of their own
spiritual master, so be it. Everyone has free will, but they have to
live with the results.